Collosus: Air or Gound target?

Discussion in 'General StarCraft 2 Discussion' started by VodkaChill, May 30, 2008.

Collosus: Air or Gound target?

  1. VodkaChill

    VodkaChill New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    491
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    I was asking myself this question.

    Let's say there is a Collosus on the battlefield and an Hydralisk attacks it. Apart from getting raped very badly, will the Hydra fire is 10 dammage spike vs air or is 8 dammage spike vs ground.

    You can change the hydra here with any unit that can attack both ground and air at different dammage.
    Hydra
    Thor
    I can't remember any other right now, but, what attack will it use? Will we be able to target the legs as ground or the body as air independantly?
     
  2. lurkers_lurk

    lurkers_lurk New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes received:
    3
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Red Bluff, CA
    this has come up before, and i think it was concluded that the more powerful attack will be used, or it can be both, it all depends on how Blizzard wants to balance it out.
     
  3. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    Messages:
    6,769
    Likes received:
    11
    Trophy points:
    0
    Seeing as how the Colossus is targetable as air, it'll choose the more damaging one.
     
  4. Psionicz

    Psionicz New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Under Your Bed
    Since when did the Hydralisk have seperate Air and Ground damage values?
     
  5. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    Messages:
    6,769
    Likes received:
    11
    Trophy points:
    0
    Since forever.
     
  6. BirdofPrey

    BirdofPrey New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    4,985
    Likes received:
    5
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Arizona
    I wonder

    They have said that both the battlecruiser and stalker are supposed to be able to use ground and air weapons simultaneously so will they fire both weapons at the colossus?

    That might make stalkers a good counter
     
  7. Hunter

    Hunter New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,057
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Hungary,Székesfehérvár
    Hm, the stalker has 2 different weapons for ground and air attacks? And what about the Thor? I hought it had different cannons fireing, while attacking air.
     
  8. Jissé

    Jissé New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    222
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Dublin
    My opinion is that the best attack will be used, as, correct me if I am wrong, you cannot tell your units "use this attack, and not this one", and Blizzard will not want to release a RTS where the units will be stupid enough to not use their best attacks against an enemy that is trying to kill them. The game launching will rely a lot on the hardcore gamers, who don't usually like to have to deal with annoying features that could make them lose unfairly.

    While the Colossus is a good idea by bringing a bit of the "War of the Worlds" topic into the Starcraft universe, I personnaly still think this kind of hybrid unit is not a good idea in a game that focus so much on the game mechanics and balance: I really fear that a unit that is in the same time considered ground and air will causes endless problems through the whole game development and experience, and pretty think at the end, it will just be a unit you will see and be able to play in the campaigns, as the old flying heroes with Warcraft III...
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
  9. VodkaChill

    VodkaChill New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    491
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Fenix : Seeing as how the Colossus is targetable as air, it'll choose the more damaging one.

    Me : I too, would think this way, but I did not see anywhere Blizzard confirming this :(
    ----------------------------------------------
    BirdofPrey : I wonder

    They have said that both the battlecruiser and stalker are supposed to be able to use ground and air weapons simultaneously so will they fire both weapons at the colossus?

    Me : If I remember correctly both Battle Cruisers and Stalkers can attack both air and ground, but with the same dammage. Since they are both identical dammage, aiming for the air target of the colossus does no provide a bonus for those two units, just like Marines.
    -----------------------------------------------

    Jissé : you cannot tell your units "use this attack, and not this one"

    Me : You are right, but if the collosus as independant targets on himself, we would be able to target the Body so the unit can use Anti-Air, or target the Legs that would use the units Anti-Ground.

    Jissé : The game launching will rely a lot on the hardcore gamers, who don't usually like to have to deal with annoying features that could make them lose unfairly.

    Me : Keep in mind that ''anoying features'' for you can be translated as Micro for hardcore and pro gamers.
    -----------------------------------------------

    Thanks everyone for all those answers :)
     
  10. Jissé

    Jissé New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    222
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Dublin
    I like this sub-targets idea: I didn't think about it but it could be great yes, especially if each target involve its own features (the legs enable the units to move, and the head to attack for example, somehow like in Starwars: Empire at War).

    By annoying features, I am sure you know what I mean: not that you may have to define where exactly you want some AoE abilities to be performed for example, but clearly make a unit stupid enough to not be able to select by itself the best basic action to do for its own survival =) ... Too much micro-management required to play the game could make it unplayable.
     
  11. Remy

    Remy New Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    US East Coast
    You're not understanding correctly what BoP was trying to say. The BC and Stalker can attack two separate targets(one ground and one air) at the same time. Meaning, two attacks, simultaneously. So BoP was saying that the BC and Stalker will likely have 2X attacks VS the Colossus, since they have separate weapons VS ground and air.

    This then, would be unlike the Marine, since while the Marine also deals equal damage VS ground and air, it only has a single weapon. So it must choose at any given moment whether it will attack a ground or air target, never both.
     
  12. VodkaChill

    VodkaChill New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    491
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Ah thank you for the explanation. Having x2 attack on the colossus alone sounds kind of broken = /

    If they implement that you can use your 2 weapon system at once, then it should be working in general. If a marine and a Banshee are in the area, then the BC could shoot them at the same time. How will balance be affected?
     
  13. 10-Neon

    10-Neon New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes received:
    4
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Gainesville, FL
    Evidence for BCs and Stalkers being able to engage two targets simultaneously? Please.

    As far as I am aware, there is no unit that can do this- not even the Mothership, or Carrier.
     
  14. BirdofPrey

    BirdofPrey New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    4,985
    Likes received:
    5
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Arizona
    I remember them mentioning that quite a while ago.

    It might have been changed
     
  15. lurkers_lurk

    lurkers_lurk New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes received:
    3
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Red Bluff, CA
    it was in an old video, like in the very first one showed, i believe its in the video of when they reviled the Protoss for the first time, you can find the case with some of the stalkers, in the big battle part with the Terrans
     
  16. Yamato_Cannon

    Yamato_Cannon New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Messages:
    56
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Virginia, United States
    That wouldn't make sense to hit both air and ground at the same time. What about AoE spells, such as psionic storm?

    EDIT: By the way, what do you guys think will happen when you try to lift a collosus? Would it not affect it, since it's part air, or would it have some alternate affect, such as tipping it over (since it's so flimsy-looking)
     
  17. Remy

    Remy New Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    US East Coast
    Actually, evidence of it can be seen as early as in the first Protoss demo(WWI), and it ain't just the Stalker and BC. One can clearly observe in the "final battle" of the vid that the BC, Stalker, Phoenix, and MS all acquire separate ground and air targets simultaneously. While the MS is the only unit that has more than one attack going out at the same time, you can clearly see that the BC, Stalker, and Phoenix quickly attacking separate ground/air targets back-to-back. If you compare the cool down observed for those units VS two target, it's about the same as when they attack only a single targets. It's easiest to see with the Stalker, because one of the Stalkers acquired two targets positioned far apart, and it kept turning left and right very quickly per attack cycle(equal to the cooldown of one) to attack the two separate targets.

    Also, in the unit info window of the GUI, when a unit is selected, it shows the armor, attack, and shield(Protoss only) upgrade levels of the unit. However, when a Stalker is selected, you can see that its ground and air attacks are listed separately despite the damage being the same. So the Stalker actually has four items listed(armor, shield, attack, attack) unlike other units. The same is true for the Phoenix, but IIRC, its ground attack has been removed. One might argue that Blizzard just decided to list the ground and air attacks separately to show that a unit can attack both, but not simultaneously. However, if you take a look at the Warp Ray, which also can attack both air and ground, only a single attack upgrade is listed. I mentioned this back when the video was originally released to bring it to people's attention, but it might have been on another forum before I decided to make this site the home of all my text walls.

    Another note is that the original MS also listed only a single attack. However, the original MS had an entirely different mechanic, in which, it had many separate small attacks(16 or so IIRC) that could be focused on a single target or spread out against multiple separate targets(at least three). But there's been changes on the MS, and I've lost track just exactly where we are with it, so it's not really important. But anyway, I think that's plenty of evidence that multi-targeting exists in SC2. Whether or not it exists in the current build is really not that important. My personal guess is, if we check out some of the recent vids very closely, we'll probably still see it with BCs and Stalkers.

    Actually it makes a lot of sense. It's not much different than what you see in action films where one person holding two pistols pointing each at two different people and firing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2008
  18. Wlck742

    Wlck742 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    In your head
    Now that you mention it, I remember seeing them attack ground and air at the same time. I could imagine that with the stalker and BC and what not, but for hydras, I think it'll just choose the more damaging one. I mean, if you could choose between shooting someone in the chest or shooting someone in the foot, you would choose the more damaging one, shooting them in the chest, right?
     
  19. Psionicz

    Psionicz New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Under Your Bed
    Ha, I just watched the video and the Phoenix did indeed shoot ground and air simultaneously, but I did not see the Stalker do it at all. But I guess we can get rid of any hope for the Phoenix doing so since its AtA.
    The Mothership attacks both also.

    I also noticed that the BC did not shoot air and ground simultaneously but it switched targets faster without a cool down when it fired at a ground target then an air target.
    So to me that makes more sense than a Stalker firing at ground and air simultaneously as we can clearly see there is less cool down time between air and ground attacks.
    Do you honestly believe you'd be able to effectivly fire at two targets at the same in the heat of battle while evading attacks and vise versa.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2008
  20. Gasmaskguy

    Gasmaskguy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes received:
    4
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Sweden
    But the person with the two pistols woud be able to fire at one target at a time, but as far as I know a Stalker can't choose to fire both it's air and ground attack simultaneously at a ground unit for instance. It seems like a Stalkers damage output is doubled if there's both an air and a ground target nearby, but I might of course be wrong.