Can't get to midgame

Discussion in 'Protoss' started by Amduscias, Aug 6, 2010.

Can't get to midgame

Discussion in 'Protoss' started by Amduscias, Aug 6, 2010.

  1. Amduscias

    Amduscias New Member

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    Hi!

    Lately i discovered that i have incredible lack to get to midgame. Mose matches i lose are because i don't get my enemy beaten early and therefor the game gets to midgame. My enemy techs towards higher units but i still lack of experience to get my midgame working.

    For example: Last round i played (suffered a really long period of losses) i went against terran. OK, not to bad, lets get this started. I went of with a four warpgate build, got some zealots, stalkers and sentries. I teched blink. The terran player already walled himself in, had a few tanks out in siege to defend the entrance. My army got raped. Instead of going for SOMETHING else i went for dark templars early and realized he had missile towers. No use for DTs, they got raped early, too. Fortunatly i got my eco running and had 3 bases. But i went for MASS STALKERS! STUPID! Cant get over the warpgates (i had 11 warpgates and pumped out). He had a few ghosts raping 2 expos of mine (i had 5 at that time) so i build a few detectors in the robo. i blasted the ghosts away and stopped him from expanding. the game suffered in length. I got bored.... Didn't knew what to do so i kept massing stalkers. when i blasted a few expos he recently build (had my detectors telling me) i felt comfortable enough to take my stalkers, blink into his base and go for siege tank, thors and the few units he had. He didn't quit. He waited for me to blast his last structures. The game took 46min. I had nothing but stalkers.

    My problem, as you can see, i cant switch to midgame. I don't know how i get to "better" units. Didn't knew what to do....

    Any advises/good videos to look at??

    Help would be appreciated.


    --------------

    at least i made 3 achievements in that game: :wacko:

    Protoss makro master (warp in 9 units at the same time)
    Warp in madness (100 units in 1 game warped in)
    To the shadows I run (save a stalker /w blink)
     
  2. Levocity

    Levocity Guest

    to get better units you have to go to Advanced Structures. click on a probe and as long as you have a cybernetics core there will be a button that says advanced strutcures. build those they have all of the good units.
     
  3. jpd5184

    jpd5184 New Member

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    are you serious, what a stupid post, he obviously knows that.

    if you got a detector you could have blinked behind his seige tanks if you had vison or tried to use a warp prism. templars and psi storm would have been pretty effective as well.

    but for ground units you probably would want a colossus or two.
     
  4. cjwhite92

    cjwhite92 New Member

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    Instead of going for a 4 gate build, try going for an early robotics facility. You'll be able to transition into the midgame a lot easier and you can build some early Immortals to try and compensate for fewer early units.
     
  5. ProtossZealot

    ProtossZealot New Member

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    Obviously your Terran opponent was turtling and was waiting for you to attack,while he sniped your bases with ghosts and maybe cloacked banshees.You deal with them by leaving him to only 1 or 2 bases.No expansion at all.Get 2 mobile forces,several detectors and many patrols to ensure he stays put and when you have teched to the max and control everything go and destroy him slowly.He won't have any resources to rebuild what he looses.

    About midgame transition.When you see that the warp gate units don't do the job for you,you must go to stargate technology followed shortly by robotics.The units you get from there are more durable and deadly,but come at a bigger price.
    Warp gate units will still help you,but this time more like a meat shield or just support.The only units you should consider building are templars(especially high templars).

    I usually build 5-6 immortals and 3 collosi from robo,and try to get 1 or 2 groups of Void rays with Carriers,which are an extremely good combo especially if you know how to micro.
     
  6. Amduscias

    Amduscias New Member

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    The problem is, that im not used to get to midgame. 90% of my games had been done within the first 15min. But right now i had a few games where i needed to go to midgame but thanks to that stupid 4 warpgate build i unlearned my midgame. I DO know where to get the units from (thanks alot, Levocity) but i cant get them into my build.

    Think i should get rid of that 4 warpgate build for now (tried to develope it to make it perfect and deadly in early game) and look out for something new.
     
  7. RushSecond

    RushSecond New Member

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    It actually sounds like you did a very nice job in that game. Against terran mech (siege tanks, thors) mass blink stalkers is one of the best counters you could have. Immortals would have been even better, except that he had ghosts to EMP and drain immortals of their shields, so I personally would have kept with blink stalkers.

    If you really wanted to tech up, you could have thrown down 3 stargates and pumped void rays or carriers. Thors can attack air, but it's only really effective against "light" air. Armored air units like void rays don't take much damage and will easily overpower thors and missle turrets.

    And one more thing: stay with 4 gate against terran! It's IMO the most effective early game you can do against terran, as it's the only build that doesn't make you automatically lose if he attacks you early with mass marines.
     
  8. snowden0908

    snowden0908 New Member

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    I think a common misconception in SC2 is that there is some sort of mythical transition process.

    All you need to do is pick a direction to go, and follow that tech path. For example you open with 4 gate and push for a strong economy, excellent. Once you know what he has you just need to decide whether or not your current setup can beat it an a fight. If yes- attack and win. If no- use your economy and go on the defensive while you pick the best unit mix to counter what he has and (if you feel like you know what is coming) will have. Once you have selected what works best in your opinion, build the structure that lets you whip out those units and ta-da! you have transitioned.

    Theres no build order for transitions or any way you have to do it. Just keep asking yourself which units would help you out the most and make them.

    It really just seems like you don't know what works well against what yet, which is understandable because the game is new but sooner rather than later you will know and when you do you will see that transitions come naturally
     
  9. Amduscias

    Amduscias New Member

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    Ok, first of, thanks for all your help!

    After reading your thoughts and suggestions i first started off using the internet to find some new BOs which could help me. Since i didn't found anything i worked it off myself and came with a good 3 Warpgate to Robo build. AI really helped me developing it and since it worked against hard AI i freshly tested it in Multiplayer.

    First off, there was my old "standart" 4 Warpgate Buildorder. Unfortunatly i mostly relied on the Warpgate-Units (Zeals, Stalkers and Sentrys) to much. Therefor i had some terrible games and even the one where i had to play some of the worst games ever for 45min or so.

    Afterwards, i went for the new BO. I start up the same (9/10 Pylon, 12/18 Warpgate/Assimilator and so on) but changed it to a Robo instead of a 4th Warpgate. I tried to use the fact that i have mapcontrol and keep expanding and holding the ground. Really worked out good (still, my micro is to bad, APM to low and i keep losing track of where my units are sometimes). Next on, i will work more on my "general" knowledge, conters etc.

    Thx a lot!
     

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  10. Nimzitah

    Nimzitah Guest

    It sounds like your play style might be cause, I don't think the problem is so much your mid-game strategy but the way you evolve your ground units. If you're already four gate rushing and you build more gates it makes no sense to transitiont to a build which involves llight air such as void rays. An easier solution would just to max out your weapons, armor, and shields. Also in the process have a variety of units instead stalkers.

    Your best bet, when encountering Terran forces in a frenzy, is to have a variety of upgraded ground units such as Zealots, Sentinels, and Stalkers. Throw in a couple of DT's because they are very effective in wave surges when you're dealing with a mass amount of Terran units (They aren't built for survivability) . 9 times out of ten, a Terran player won't have an observer if he hasn't seen your Dark Shrine Normally mid-game means that neither player's base hasn't been crippled , if it is it's late game because the other player has the advantage. So build the Dark Shrine in the back of your base toward your nexus (unless you're doing a turtle build -then build it behind your other structures to the opposite side of your nexus.

    When in mid-game your (this is if you don't want to advance your tech tree) your infantry units should always be upgraded in armor weapons, and shields (it should be your priority) to keep them as effective as possible. As the above poster said before, build three to four robotic factories and get Immortals or switch to colassai if the Terran player is massing Marines and organic units. Colossi are Crap if they are against armored units such as Thors, or hellions, they're specialty is knocking out waves of Organic units.

    (It's a anti-zerg unit essentially)

    Your final grouping should be as followed

    The majority of your troops : Stalkers.
    Followed by : 3-4 sentinels.
    Supported with : Zealots maybe give or take 8-10 with upgraded speed. (Twilight council)
    While in the Fray: DT 3-4, keep the ratio of zealots to DTS 2-1 or 3-1 for every 1 DT have 2 zealots. Zealots are cheaper, and do less damage but they're easier to mass and cost less They also have better survivability. Where as a DT are fragile, strong and stealthy only get you so far.
    Then, if you're going against waves of enemies (A player massing marines and med vacs persay) Try to aim your stalkers at the med vacs take those out ASAP and let your other units clean up the mass ground units ) Or if they're massing a variety such as Thors, Marines, and Marauders you can drop some stalkers (not all) and switch with immortals, Immortals only take 10 damage if they are hit hard. This is extremely effect against Siege tanks. Most Terran players love Siege tanks, because they are versatile, with range and have immense damage they are generally put in the back as support units to back the for the initial attack. This includes Marines, Reapers, Marauders,Thors, the front line initiators. It is what makes Siege tanks so efficient, if you can't touch them you're just getting hammered with splash damage. Immortals counter this with survivability which is why they can't attack Air. If you have your Dark Templars in the fray they can easily take out the tanks which would be a winning factor, while the immortals would still be able to cushion the most amount of damage. (Because they're only taking 10 damage from the Siege tanks.) With upgraded armor, and damage as well as shields... GG siege tanks.

    This is all infantry and no air. The reason being I just don't see a reason to waste resources and build Air units and further your tech tree if you already have a four gate way system set up it makes no sense. So you're essentially wasting 150*3 plus units which is a good 2 K then move to air who are expensive and time consuming. Given you do have Chrono boost, if you plan on going air, do a two gate way rush and build two assim in the very beginning and begin harvesting gas early, while producing units in small increments for every probe make two zealots, then gradually switch to stalkers to have some defensive against the opposing players. Don't just change your build in the middle of the game it'll cripple you more than it will help.

    In my honest opinion what you're lacking is diversity in your mid-game rather than an actual mid-game. Protoss have a diverse set up which factors around survivability and strength. At the cost of production ( which means don't be stupid and waste your military over an expansion and get creamed by a counter. )

    Also, another point to win mid-games is map control, go ahead and wipe out his expansions, by pushing you not only starve him but makes his production plummet. Usually most players get expansions at this time, go ahead and take them build a nexus on his **** and protect it, the farther you advance into the opposing expansionary the less likely he is to expand, he can't move an SCV or a Drone without getting caught and since you control his side of the map you'll win.

    I hope this was an insight, rather than a rant. It was meant to help.


    PS: Two to three observers are crucial, you have to know what you're opponent is advancing at all times, have some scattered around or even in frenzies to take out banshees, ghosts, ect. Since nuking is easier you might want to fortify your main base with one to two just to be safe, also build a pylon nearr your nexus in an event he does nuke your warp gates and ship in 5-8 (depending on how many gates)

    Things to note: Good strats.

    Proxy Pylons, when advancing, build one in the corner of his base or a nook somewhere outside of his base
    ship in your Stalkers, send either a wave of Zealots to his front door to distract him and blink up to sac his commander center and drones.
    NOTE: Since you need vision to blink (obviously), have an observer on stand by, if a Zealot manages to break through the Choke hold forces you won't require one because once they attack that Zealot and you blink up in time, it's game.

    Proxy Pylons are important when sending your units across your map, hot key your gate ways always, it's a good use of Micro, and it's also effective when in frenzies you don't have to **** around clicking.

    -If you aren't used to building above basic tech and are much comfortable with it (Cybernetics cores gate ways and robotics) basic techs ;then don't, its your play style don't try something different; on a whim, go with what you are comfortable with the problem is diversity not so much your strat.

    Side note: This is only for Mid-game, late game would entail he would be having battle cruisers, in which case you must advance your tech, or mass stalkers, and blink behind them, and keep massing them it takes 2 waves of stalkers to knock out one wave of non upgraded battle cruisers, that said if you have 10 gate ways **** it just m *** them and until they die, you'll have the production advantage along with overwhelming numbers.
    -Nim.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2010
  11. Suzina

    Suzina New Member

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    I think you know "how", to get to mid-game, you're just not used to it. After five or six gateways, your instinct tells you even MORE gateways is better. The trick is to think when you have a lot of minterals/gas (over 1k of either), "What am I NOT making that I should?" The first answer will probably be air. What if they expanded to an island expansion like on scrap station? What if their army of 80% siege tanks is making a ground assualt impossible? Then it's time to drop down a few stargates, and if you have 3 or more bases, a fleet becon.

    Stalkers are a great meat-and-potatoes unit, because they can attack land and air. It isn't that you can't get to mid-game, you just don't feel "safe" to do so. Train yourself out of that and you'll decimate your enemies as hard as you would a player who never felt safe enough to build a cybercore instead of an extra gateway.