Blizz, Please buff Stim pack..

Exhibit A:


As you can clearly see its so hard to kite with marines and therefore stim pack needs to be buffed.

Thanks.

Edit: Srsly guys this is serious thread....don't make me create a petition!!

 

Tbh, what I saw was you having an army of 11 zealots/4stalkers/2sentries when he had a handful of marines while your probe count was lower than his scv count by 6 even though you had chronoboosting while he didn't and he also had mules.

An army doing nothing is wasted money, if you had been agressive at that point(~8min mark) you'd have pushed him into defensive...

Sending 3 colossi alone against his marines with no other unit to tank damage was also a very bad idea.

You had blink which you didn't use, guardian shield which you didn't use, while instead you chose to force field with 2 sentries which was bad, you'd need more than 4 to be effective.

3 armor upgrade on units with 1 armor base(zealots/stalkers) +guardian shield takes out a total of 6 damage per hit from marines. That maxes out to 3(yes 3!) damage per hit from +3 attack marines.

And a robo that built nothing but observers which scouted only things that a probe or halucinated phoenix would.


Also, quite a bit of bm. You didn't even bother replying to the gl/hf, made a smirk remark about bunker(oh I have an observer I can see you, so cool!), qq'ed about stim when it was obvious that stim wasn't the problem, and left without a gg when apparently your opponent outplayed you.

Sorry to break it to you but it was bad decisions that lost you that match, not OMG-OP stimpack. Troll less and learn some manners.

 

why would you buff the stimpack when YOU were the protoss?`...
it'd only be much harder for you to win next time against terran

 

He was being sarcastic >.<

 

lol.

bad manners, this is teh internet. I don't care. Don't think I even consider it bad manners, I just don't like talking in games, Im not a social person, in a way I like to break what are considered social norms, especially ones on the internet.

Its not arrogance or malice intent, I just don't care about gging, gling of hfing.. It means nothing to me.

So stop thinking its "bad manners" some people just want to play and do nothing else.

If I do talk in a game its because Im playing custom and don't care what happens.

This rant on BM, has nothing to do with this thread, so let it go.
I infact block everyone in game not on my buddy list, it saves alot of attempted insults and smack talk on their end. (Because I don't talk to people in game much if at all)


point is: everything I did wrong was because he had such damm good micro with stim marines.

And hey, if you only have to make one unit to win, and only have to do two simple actions with it, what is this telling you, Im not in bronze, Im in platinum. Im not bad enough for this to tell you I just need more practice. IM not pro. But common, theres no unit zerg or prot can make and mass under 10 minutes that is this easy to use and win with. Theres something that can be adjusted Im sure.


I think its nice and even that:

T have to do two things.
Press stim pack
Kite


to counter that, protoss need:
Perfect forcefields
Perfect zealot micro with charge
perfect sentry positioning
perfect stalker micro with blink
And it helps if you have perfect storms or perfect colusi control.


So yes, of course I made more mistakes, its quite obvious why.

He had to do 2 things with those marines, while I had to do at least 4 things perfectly.
Doing 4 things perfectly is ALOT harder than kiting + hitting stim.

I dunnue how this is balanced, Im not a pro. Do I have to be pro to pull this off? I hope not.

It really not stimpack thats the problem, its the range and or fire rate. But lets think about possible changes that will making kiting not as easy with mm.

Ask yourself this: the Zealot can be kited to death even if the marine has no upgrades.

Now, lets assume for a given situation that the marine has both shield and stim upgrade, and the zealot has charge. A good player will still kite the living fuk out the zealot even though it has charge which is susposed to counter the ability to kite.

Now why does the marine get two upgrades, and already good unit to kite crap with?

What would be balanced is if there was a second upgrade for zealot speed, like +10-15%
It makes only logical sense for a marine thats already good vs zealots that gets 2 upgrades for a zealot to have some other second upgrade option.
That would help.


OR hell! make stim pack a cool down, OR HEY guess what, make charge not cooldown, make it just like stim, where you can use it as much as u fraking want, just like stim at the cost of health.

That would be alot closer to balanced.


Lets be honest, zealots with charge suck balls without perfect PRO control of forcefields and every other unit your using. (Its cause of that bloody stupid cooldown, stim isn't cooldown!! why not!!!?)

I would be fine with stim, if they changed it to cool down, and to balance it, no health taken away.
So maybe 10 second cooldown and no health subtracted. Thats probably too easy... Its too simple..


Ok, how about we don't touch stimpack or charge. Lets look at range and fire rate.

The fire rate of the marine is insane even without stimpack. maybe slowe fire rate by 10-15%, that would probably make kiting less deadly. but not by much.

range, well meh, its ok, maybe put one less, or .5 less if you can do that.

Edit: A better change would be to make forcefield casting range farther. by 2-3 range. maybe even less energy to use it.
But good kitting will still avoid forcefields or kill sents first.

The best change would be to make cooldown for stim, or charge like stim, use it as much as you want with health subtracted.

TLNR, Hitting stim and kitting is too easy, make it less easy.

I can only imagine how people in lesser leagues are getting owned by stim and kite. insane. :wacko:


Im not mad, rlrly Im not, But I can feel the possible rage from people that keep losing to only M or MM through kitting stim only.


ah just forget it, youll or someone will just respond.

But but but if you had Perfect unit control, and was perfect and made NOO mistakes you woulda won.

Im not huk, buddy... And I shouldn't have to be pro to not die two simple things, kiting + stim.

 

Man, while I agree that kiting with stim is easy to execute it takes a big toll on the army's lifespan and even with such mechanics it's decisions that win the game much more than control.

That guy's kiting was quite average, tbh, not even too good. I can deffinitely kite better than him. What lost you the game was not bad control either. If you'd responed to his marine-only army with a zealot-only army with charge and perhaps 1-2 sentries for the guardian shield you'd have obliterated him. He stims once, you run back, stim ends charge, second stim->retreat. With no medvacs there's so much stimming that can happen after 3 stims zealots kill marines in 1 single hit!

Blink stalkers even: They're as easy to kite as marines(fast+blink) and if you're good you can increase their lifespan tenfold by blinking out the wounded ones. If you only had blink-stalkers and engaged-blinked back-engaged blinked back you'd have won again.

What went wrong though? He outmacroed you. He got a safe expand out fast and while you did have a big army earlier than he did you didn't put it to use to cause damage and let him expand while you didn't grab your expansion instead(as fast at least).

ForceFielding: You didn't need to force field at all there. It didn't offer you almost any advantage because you only had 2 sentries. You could have instead shielded up and given your whole army a 33% damage reduction, just by pressing "G". That was a bad decision to FF instead.

You also didn't upgrade at all whereas he was at +3/+2 and almost +3/+3 by the end of the match.

You could have swayed that match over to your side without much effort and without doing anything insane huk-like. Just take some better decision making and that's all...



As for forcefielding: You need it when he has both marines and marauders and medvacs because in that case he can attack with stim, kite with stim+shells and run back and then regen the life lost to stim, so having in effect stimmed without losing anything so you have to make him pay the stim toll by losing part of his forces to the forcefield-zealot sandwitch. It'll also prevent the marauders from attacking stalkers in your army due to being too far away, and they'll do half damage against zealots instead. If you don't worry about stalkers dieing to heavy marauder fire and he has no way to recover from a stim, just pull back and re-engage his wounded forces, force a stim and pull back again, the third time(although you'll have suffered losses during the first 2) you'll just walk through slicing the whole army in like 1 hit each.



Also, upgrades: they are super important:

Consider the 2 extreme cases:

1 zealot 0/0/0 vs 1 3/3 marine: The marine will do 8 damage per hit to the zealot(I'm not counting plasma shield in this, it takes 9 instead but no matter) while the zealot will do 10 damage per hit on the marine! It will take 6(5) hits for the zealot to kill the (stimmed)marine or 7.2 seconds while the marine will need 18 hits to kill the zealot, which including the range and a stim will mean that the zealot will be left with like ~40 hit points in the end. And that's without any kiting!

Take the opposite example: a 0/0 marine will do 2 damage per hit to the 3/3/3 zealot. While the zealot will do 22 damage against the marine(notice that the marine does 1/4 damage of the original situation while it takes 2.2 times the damage from the zealot which makes the zealot 8 times more effective than the previous fight!). The zealot will obliterate the marine in 3 hits(2+1 hit point leftover) while taking like 20 points of shield damage.

A 3/3/3 zealot with guardian shield will take 0.5 damage per hit or one damage every 2 marine hits from a 0/0 marine! Consider that insane scenario!

Another thing: choosing your ground: You ended up fighting in the ramp 2 or 3 times iirc. That made your units struggle through to a good concave that allowed for him to take advantage. Since you saw the attack coming you could have positioned your units in such a place that you have the advantage. Zealots in the front, ranged in the back, or with blink stalkers: stalkers in the front with space between them for zealots to pass through and have stalkers tank some damage and blink them back when their shields were down. That way and with guardian shield on you could have won the fights from early on too...


Look at all these options: you didn't have to do all of them(if you did you'd have completely obliterated him) but any combo of 1-2 of them would help you a lot out of that spot.


Aw, last thing, I almost forgot:

Making stim cooldown-based would nerf the terran army to the ground. Having it like that allows for the terran forces to retreat with some amount of safety and if they have medvacs heal back to full after some time. If would also change the whole way terran would play by making them turtle much more and make a big doom-push and exploit that time where stim is active to do the most damage. It'd be like "when to use your cooldown".

Zealot charge on the other hand would have to do like 35 damage per use if it were to be like stim, and if you wanted your zealots to not die to overusing it it should be targeted by the player making it extremely micro-intensive for the protoss player on the one hand AND, most importantly) would hurt zealot spreading a lot which in turn would make it so that other melee units like zerglings which usually get stuck on the zealot wall, would be able to pass through holes easily and move back and kill the stalkers/sentries/colossi.


Think of it like this:


You have dots on both sides to connect:
o -
o -
A o - B
o -
o -

Etc. If it's being automated like it is now, while the dots on the right side(zerglings) move to attack point A zeglings will converge to that. Zealots moving to attack point B will also converge to that. They will meet halfway and zealots will auto-charge the nearest zergling filling gaps and creating a natural wall that blocks them from moving back.

If you were to target charge you'd have 2 options: Either without smarcast enabled you'd target 1 ling, zealots would all charge that one, stacking up, losing hits made for the back ones and leaving both sides open for the lings to go through, or if smarcast was enabled as it is now, you'd have to press "c" and then shift click as mane different zerglings as many zealots you have. if you had 50 zealots in your army what would you do?

Plus in both cases you'd lose life on zealots. Or if it was energy-based you'd lose energy and have them vulnerable to feedback and EMP would negate the charge. In any case any change in the resource that charge uses would hurt the protoss army greatly, and the same would apply to stimpack for the terran army and also the terran tactics as a whole too...


As for the marine fire-rate: just consider the zergling damage output! They have the stimmed marine's attack speed and lack damage by 1 point and 2 of them pop out for the same cost! Plus their attack speed upgrade is passive! Have you seen how fast an army dies if a zerg player does a good surround with upgraded cracklings? They just obliterate ground forces and structures given enough numbers and a good surround.


I'm generally a little reluctant to talk about balance issues when the game is still at this stage since there are infinite possibilities for a strategy to evolve that will make a current "cookie-cutter" trend useless...


Well, that's what I had to say, I think... I just don't think it's right to call something imbalanced when it's your faults that lead you to defeat. if you do your best to adapt and watch the replay and can't find no mistake at all, while the enemy has made a few mistakes and manages to pull a win, then that will suggest a balance issue, but if it isn't so, learn from your mistakes, correct them and when you do re-evaluate your strategy and see what else goes wrong.

Finally, I'm not judging skill or anything, I'm just comparing 2 players pitted one against the other by a system that makes it so you generally converge to a 50% win ratio, so it averages out being similarly skilled players. Also a good player's mistakes are much easier to see because his fundamentals are near perfect so what's left is the actual strategy and decision-making. A bad player's mistakes are ultimately not important since even if he didn't make them his fundamentals would suck and he'd lose anyway, or would have to improve in that area anyway. When he sets the basics in a good place then the other parts of the game open up for him to improve at.

 

Your response was predicted.

well you just need to be perfect and not make any mistakes with 4-5 things to counter 2 things.

great... sounds fun..

besides.
forcefields and only zealots do not counter mass marines with stim.

Zealots because their melee can only attack 1 target at a time, marines even broken up with crap tons of forcefields can hit most if not all your zealots from whereever they are.

 

cant you just surround or flank with zealots like zerglings and ultralisks?
that would be sweet xD

 

I'd say that my response was un-read because you're saying that I said the opposite of what I actually did say.

Zealots with FF do not counter mass marines with stim, I also said that. Chargelots with guardian shield on the other hand do.

I didn't say that you need to be perfect in 4-5 things, to counter not 2 but one thing. You have to just be a little better in 1 thing and that's decision-making. Bad decisions lose way more games than lack of control does.


If you had done only 1 thing: Outmacroed and outexpanded him, then you could have won the game with 1 unit and 1 command. Mass zealots, box+a-move. Or mass stalkers, box+a-move wouldn't change something...

It's frustrating to put effort into explaining something and then getting a response that says "I didn't read what you said but you're still wrong because of that", and that "that" is exactly the opposite of what you typed >.<

Re-read please. Or just reply with "bored, tl;dr" but don't reply claiming I said the opposite that I actually did...


Just to quote :

and

Out of these 2 quotes, what conclusion can a reasonable person make?
Either that you replied without even reading what you're replying to, or that you didn't understand what you read...

Yes, you can, just hide part of your zealots when you scout the enemy army move out and when they close up on you get those hidden zealots to attack from behind and sandwitch your enemy force... Works like forcefields but also does damage

 

Your simply disagreeing with my summary of your post.

That is all.

Wait: I just thought of another change. Make stimpack and charge cost the same and take same amount of time to reasearch. And don't say protoss will get it out way faster cause of charge, you can't assume protoss is only using charge on reasearch.

 

Get your terms right and take your nerd rage to SJ.

 

Its not rage, its sarcasm.

 

As 1n5an1ty, I will be the Arbiter of this discussion.

Hell to the ...well.... no.

Stim pack....is way.....powerful already >.>
If it gets buffed I will punch the wall again. and hope nothing gets fractured this time.

 

Im sure something will be nerfed along the way. or buffed..

Or i hope, at least charge cooldown is reduced.

I want at least that.

 

Doubt it. Cause that never happens.

 

Long posts in space junk Oo

 

I am subversive like that :mask:

 

Is that what us commonfolk refer to as "evil" ?

 

Both Ste and Stirlitz are wrong.

Marines aren't imbalanced. But you don't counter them with mass zealots and forcefields, a huge ball of marines with +2 or +3 weapons will win regardless.

What you have to do is get splash. Colossi and high templar destroy marines. As in, it's not even close. Terran can stim and try and micro all they want, but it won't help them avoid getting there whole army killed by 5 colossi and losing in the resulting protoss attack on his main.

 

Yes, thank you RushSecond.

Now, they can micro like this:
A group of ~12 vikings to snipe colossi while rines run away with stim, Thors to tank for them.
Siege tanks set up a bit beyond thors, out of colossi reach, spaced out well. marauders will come in first, not grouped like a ball. Vikings land snipe all remaining HTs and rines rush in killing the remaining colossi.

So you can't just have like 6 HT and 5 Colossi and a few tanking units.


Now, this is where I would be so screwed if the enemy have terrific micro. I think I should at least try implementing archons into my strat...

*stops trolling*