Bird's discussion of the month. THOR

There has been much concern over the Thor overlapping with the siege tank causing Blizzard to rethink the unit and recently it was revealed that the Thor will replace the Cobra as the main ground-to-air unit. How do you feel this will affect the Terran strategy and their ability to counter air units? Will having a sturdy unit able to counter capitol ships be beneficial to the Terrans or will the extensive prerequisites cause the Terrans to have problems with earlier basic air units?

Another thing that has been mentioned is that now the Thor will become immobile if it takes enough damage. It was said that you will have to kill the unit twice. How do you think this will balance its incredible power? Will the fact that it can be immobilized allow more effective defense against it or will the more involved destruction process make it a more dangerous juggernaut since hitting 0 hitpoints will not remove the unit? What are some possible ways of balancing the increased durability such as limiting its ability to turn after being immobilized? Currently it cannot move or fire.

There was also some consideration into making the Thor a superunit. What are your thoughts on that? Would making it a superunit remove the overlap and match its might or would it eliminate any power the unit has left?

Another thing that has been brought up many times is the effectiveness on island maps. Please leave any suggestions for making it viable on island maps such as giving it thrusters or being able to be dismantled when an island has been cleared. With news of the unit being smaller now it might actually fit into a dropship



I am going to submit a summary of this discussion at the end of this month (maybe next) so try to answer as many of the questions as possible and don't linger on any single item. I don't want any 5 page arguments on one thing like happened over the Immortal shields in the last one of these I made.

 

The Thor, let me see.
Let me first clear some things up. Is the Cobra unit scrapped? or has its role just been modified. I loved the idea of a unit that moved AND attacked simultaneously.
Also, does the Thor still have its bombard ability? where it uses the guns on its back.
Now, on to the Thor.
Someone mentioned that the Thor and the Seige Tank served similar roles. Both were heavy anti-ground artillery. The main difference that I saw was that the Thor traded mobility for firepower and the ability to attack air. Now, however, their roles are distancing. I think the Thor would be a reasonable anti-air unit except for that fact that it lacks mobility, which I would consider key when it comes to hunting down air units. The Thor is very slow, as we have all seen. This means that a capitol ship could easily out maneuver the Thor. If the Thor attacked, the ship could just fly circles around him, fly over a cliff or building, then show up and attack someplace else. The only instance where this wouldn't be an issue is if the capitol ship was attacking a Terran base and the Thor defending.
Someone mentioned in a separate thread that the Thor was an offensive unit while the tanks were defensive, which sounded reasonable to me, but makes we wonder how the Thor would fare as a defense.
To wrap up this argument, I still feel strongly that the Terrans need an air superiority fighter. That may result in the Thor's role becoming similar to the Seige Tanks again...in which case...I don't know. But a fighter would have mobility and be cheaper than a Thor.
The Thor, I'm assuming, is not a tier 1 or 2 unit. This means the Terrans wouldn't have a strong air counter until late game, which would be a flaw when it came to early game offensives. (I don't want to turn this into a debate over the Viking, but if it were moved back to the factory, it may be able to supply that early air-to-air that the Terrans seem to be lacking.)

As for the mobility deal, I like it. I think it really depends on how the hp is displayed. Perhaps it would have two little hp bars, one would be its mobility the other over all hp. The question is how they would re displayed.

Superunit: No, please.

As for island maps, someone made a suggestion a while back...what about if the Thor simply lifted off like a building? During the flight phase, all weapons would be offline, converting all power to thrusters. If the mobility idea was brought into effect I think it should work the same way in flight. If the Thor was shot down, if would crash to the ground and be rendered immobile as it would normally be. If it was shot down over water...or a cliff, or something that it couldn't land on...then perhaps it would be destroyed? Then again this would result in lots of redicules moments such as if the Thor was shot down on a doodad or something...thoughts?
Anyway, theres my 2 cents...

 

I'm going to sum up my views on the Thor. Also the order is relevant to Chax's post.

Cobra and the Thor, it mearly seems that the Thor took the Cobra's place as Heavy AA support which leads me to think the Thor's back cannons will be changed into some form of AA attack. As for the Cobra they might just put it somehwere else or change the units function.

I also loved the idea of a unit would effectly moves and shots at the same time.

The Thor and Siege Tank no longer overlap, Siege Tank is still the most powerful long range ground attacker/defender for the Terran.

The Thor so far seems like its best suited for attacking Capital Ships.

The Thor will probably be out manouvered by fast Air Fighters depending on how it's AA works.

Both the Thor and Siege Tank can be used offensivly and defensivly just depends on your play style.

The immobile mode seems just perfect for Terran and it will probably have it's HP halfed and cease it's ability to move.

Superunit: Hell no, multiple Thors are needed.

As for the island map thing the lifting idea seems nice but I'd say if destoryed in the air it will have to blow up due to landscape variables such as rocks, water and EonMaster's pokemans. Also I'd be happy if the Thor could be salvaged like a Terran structure can.

 

Is Thor robotic or does it have a driver?

 

I Believe it has a driver like the rest of th Terran vehicles.

Why do you ask?

 

Bcoz if it was going to build from SCV,i doubt the terrans would want the trouble of warping a terran into it,just my guess.

 

I think that the thor has a gret role and ony barely overlapped the Tank in being able to kill a large swarm of units in a (reitively) short time, obvoisly the units in quesion would be unable to counter or move, simplicity's sake.
I see the AA attibute of the thor as a possible added weapon porbably either a type of rockets that would come out of some panels on the arms (in blue) or from above the head (in green). Or it could use its particle accelerators. It seems to be an anti capital ship (overlapping viking air i think).
However i like the 2nd death, it adds to the must destroy concept from an enemies point of view, alotting it a better tanker role.
As a super, no as zerg said multiple thors are needed.
I am a fan of liftoff as a solution and ive seen it suggested many times, id say up up and away.
Edit; click link below for thor image, sorry for sloppiness took like 20 sec, (10 of em were sizing)

 

To me the Thor seemed like a great late-game support unit for the Terrans. They had extremely high health, good damage, and high armor as well. The only problem with it was that it was slow and bulky, which wouldn't do well against fast attackers such as Mutalisks. That was before they changed it, however.

Now most people think Blizzard said that the Thor was a air unit counter, but what they actually said was that it was a heavy and air unit counter, which means it's still effective against such units as siege tanks and colossi. This still might cause some overlap with the siege tank however, especially if it still has the artillery bombardment ability. I doubt the Thor still has that ability though. The reason I don't think GTA fits the Thor is because it comes so late in the game. The Thor is really the highest unit on the tech tree, available only at the late-game, while air units are available at least from mid-game. Until mid-game Terrans have no dedicated GTA unit. They have Marines and Reapers and possibly Ghosts, but that's about it. In the first Starcraft Terrans had the Goliath to fend off air attackers. Now the only defense Terrans have against air is Marines, Reapers, and any air units of their own. However I'm quite confident the Viking will be able to handle most threats at least until the opponent gets capital ships. By then it's possible that the player will have at least one Thor out. So no real problems there.

I don't have much of a problem with the Thor being a heavy unit counter either. It's not similar to the siege tank as they're best used for long-range attacks while the Thor lacks that range. It's more of a "tanker" role that soaks up damage while handing out quite a bit in the process. Especially if it lost the bombardment ability.

I think I like the Thor's new death mechanic. It further solidifies its role as a tanker. I don't think it'll cause much balance issues either. It says the Thor can be repaired by an SCV, but that's usually not possible until the area's been cleared of enemies which may or may not be worth the effort. Sometimes it'll be more profitable to just abandon the Thor if it's too risky to try repairing it. Also Thors in their immobilized mode are more or less doomed, as many enemies have greater range than them (especially siege tanks) and so will be able to kill it with little difficulty.

The Thor definitely shouldn't be a superunit. It fit in somewhat with the Protoss with their concept of few strong units, but not with the Terrans. In order to make the Thor a superunit it would've needed to be beefed up considerably including the addition of new abilities. These would make the Thor's tanking role rather obsolete as it would've turned into a caster.

As for transporting the Thor I think it would be as simple as allowing Dropships to transport them. There's no real reason that Dropships shouldn't be able to transport Thors. The only reason people think Thors can't be transported by Dropships is because it's so huge. But never before has that made a difference. Is it so realistic that Dropships can fit two tanks, a Shuttle two Reavers, or an Overlord two Ultralisks? If anything let the Dropships transport only one Thor at a time. But if not that, the liftoff ability seems the best.

 

wow....the Cobra was scrapped ?? wth Blizzard ??

anyway,i have never seen the Thor as an unit overlapping roles with the Siege Tank,and i frankly don't know why so many people saw it that way.the Siege Tank is the long range heavy damage dealer,the Thor is a meat(ok,metal) tank,that can absorb lots of damage,while having great siege capabilities,and somewhat of a heavy unit counter .you'd never use the Siege tanks as a meat tank,nor would you leave your thors outside the enemy base to strike from there.it wouldn't make sense (heck,it wouldn't even be possible)

it's a shame that they scrapped a good unit in order to have a Thor that doesn't "overlap roles" with the Siege Tank.the Cobra was a good unit,and a hi-speed ground unit is something Terrans always had,and it shouldn't change now.every race has some unit that could be used for scout:the Vulture/Cobra was Terran's unit,but now it's gone,and i REALLY don't see why the heck this happened...

however,i liked a lot this concept of the Thor becoming immobile once it has taken enough damage.it is something really innovative,and combines greatly with the Thor's meat tank characteristics:the Thor deals heavy damage,but takes heavy damage as well.a near-death Thor would never be able to escape to safety,so turning them into immobile units once this happens is a great way to deal with this.

but turning the Thor into a super unit would just ruin it.we don't need super units,and this has been proved already,since the Mothership is no longer a super unit(and i am kinda happy for that)

 

Source: http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?FN=sc2-general&T=186001&P=3

Thor current specs

 

Just an update the Thor is now smaller and has a decent turn rate and cannot fire while disabled.  Please take that in to account

 

i think you are a bit confused there.as far as i know,it won't be able to move,not to fire after having received X damage...

 

No mistake.  The wording suggests it will not be able to fire when it takes enough damage.  It says you can leave it alone and let it burn down becuase having to fight the disabled thor ddn't work

Either way it does not affect the purpose of this duscussion

 

Put your internet hand up if you are confused by all this business. *tentatively watches reaction as I raise my hand......eh......in order to touch my temple*

But seriously, all these changes make me think that the best thing right now is just to sit back. The speculation and the discussion of the units seem rather futile atm.

 

This isn't a speculation thread. This is you telling me your opinion for me to tell Joneagle_X to tell Blizzard

 

Eh, am I missing something thar?

 

See how it works is I ask you questions about a subject then you all answer those questions and add any comments you feel is necessary then at the end of the month I read the entire thread and write a summary of everyone's opinions which is then put into the monthly report which Jon writes

Now get to the discussing

 

Sweet action.

I really like the direction they're trying to take the Thor, I just think they're making a couple mistakes.

For one, the new "must be killed twice" ability is kinda dumb in my opinion. I'd rather they just gave it more HP. Thor is shorter range than say a tank so it won't be effective as a turret. Secondly, if they take out the artillary cannons they need to replace them with something. At the very least they should increase the damage from the normal attack.

And just a suggestion, rather than use missiles for AA what if the Thor had flak cannons or something? Just to mix things up. An area effect anti air attack would be really cool.

 

Ah I see, my bad. :good:

OK then, here's a list of the things I reckon the Thor should have:
- Decent ground attack (against massed units? against heavy units? against buildings? - any one or combo of these).
- Shorter range than siege tank.
- Good AA abilities (but I don't mind it having a weaker AA attack if Blizzard can bring back the cobra - actually I prefer a dedicated AA unit that is not so huge and cumbersome).
- Having double the HP is imba imho so the 'double death' concept is good. However, I believe that the Thor should keep some sort of attack (maybe weaker?) when disabled. If this is the case, Blizzard will have to decide whether it can still turn when disabled...probably not.
- The Thor presently cannot be transported. However, (dunno if this has been said before) an idea is that it can be dissembled into several parts. These would then require maybe two drop ships to transport. Of course, the dissembling and reassembling will take some time.
- I have no opinion on turn rate. Obviously a fast turn rate is preferred (since I'm a diehard terran player) but to keep it balanced a slow turn rate is a sensible solution.

Bascially, most of what I've said have been (or are) on the Thor. I'm just summing up my overall view towards the Thor.

 

I like what they have done to the Thor

A late game GTA who also can fight off ground attacks (short range) is really the support - unit Siege Tanks need.

The fact that the Thor dies twice is the thing i love the most.... When using siege tanks i usually bring an SCV.... This SCV can now be used to make additional units out on the battlefield (make Thors), repear the damaged Siege Tanks and repear the immobilized Thors who is put in front line....

I just cant w8 to use this strategy... although i think it might be so late game that it is hard to get that far


At the same time this leaves the possibility for skilled players to pwn me by outmaneuver me from air... moving away from the Thors to take the SCV and Siege Tanks so that when i try to get my Thors to kill them, my Thors will get spread and the skilled player will immobilize the Thors one by one.... and with no SCV left they will burn down...