August Discussion Topic: Gas Mechanics

<August>Discussion Topic: Gas Mechanics
At the Worldwide Invitational in Paris, we had the opportunity to show you a new StarCraft II client. With this client we introduced a new idea on how our Gas Mechanics work. This would give the player more options and more economy choices. In the following days, Dustin Browder went more into detail on how these new mechanics can affect the game-play and we were able to get even more questions answered in the following Batch of the StarCraft II Q&A. Now we would like you to give us your feedback on the way Gas collection works now.

If you have a StarCraft II fan site and would like to participate, please email me at karune@blizzard.com.

Questions for Fans:

* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?
* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?
* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

* Additional feedback you might have

You can also check out our past Q&A and Dustin Browders post on the Gas Mechanics for more information on the subject:

WWI Gas Mechanic
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general-eu&t=809

StarCraft II Q&A Batch 41:
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general-eu&t=830

Each StarCraft II fansite will be featuring different types of questions, so be sure to also visit those sites. All of this feedback will be compiled and sent to the dev team.

Please structure feedback as follows:

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<question you'd like to answer>
<your answer>

<question you'd like to answer>
<your answer>
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Were looking forward to seeing great discussions on the new Gas Mechanics!


Source : http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1652115&p=1
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i will give my own view on this later after i have organize my thoughts on this.

 

It's hard to read dark blue text on a dark background.

My philosophy: You always want to maximize fun in a game.

Anyway, my spiel:

At battle.net, I'm known as PsiSeveredHead.

Choosing between depletion or a "boost" (but with the tradeoff that, for a time, you can't use the refinery) is interesting.

The most boring strategy would be to simply make two extractors/assimilators/refineries and not worry about them being depleted. IIRC, you get 5 gas a trip in StarCraft II, 2 when depleted, making two depleted geysers almost as good as one "full" geyser.

* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?

I don't think each race would be affected much differently, since each has heavy vespene and low vespene units. I figure banelings and other such units would be used less, since you can't buy the (now more valuable) vespene back. (Well, you can, but it's expensive.)

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

I like and don't like it.

I like it because it shows Blizzard is trying to make the game more suited for macromanagement without making the game less fun for the majority of players. It's a good experiment.

However, mostly I don't like it because this doesn't fit the concept that intermediate players "won't have to use some of these more advanced techniques". You have to have Vespene gas, and slowing your tech to avoid using up Vespene is (IMO) not a fun option. I think players generally want to ascend the tech tree. I don't think having to use twice as many workers while mining twice as many depleted geysers is as fun, and of course it's more expensive and harder to pull off in the very early game.

Having the vespene collector shut down also seems a bit like punishment.

(I also have an issue with the Zerg being expected to have more, but smaller expansions, as expansions are hard to defend, so you have to spend resources on units and static defense structures to defend them.)

I think the more advanced players should be rewarded for paying attention to the macro, but the current system seems to be punishing lower-ranked players, and just making work for the higher-ranked players.

A supporting opinion from Hypermorphic:

This is, literally, basic psychology. (I've taken a few courses like that.)

 

I will just answer to one question :

------ Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

I like the idea of using minerals to get more gas. I apologize if I repeat myself on another thread about that subject, but this is now official. This is a great idea ! I LIKE THE IDEA. Of course the strategy now will change, but I find that more realistic. This system is closer to reality.
Now we will not just get peons (the workers) who just stupidly go and come from the main structure to the vespene gas. We keep that, plus we have strategy to choose. That's realistic cause today when we need more oil we need to forge deeper underground. So we need more money (here the minerals) to forge the ground. More energy too.
Now this game just shows us that the resources are not free ! That we need to collect them and spare them. The resources are precious, and we need to choose the good strategy to win, especially not wasting vespene gas.

 

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What i find so interesting about this mechanic, is that it DIRECTLY relates to the StarCraft Board game.

However, its almost mirrored.

In the game, you could "over-mine" a geyser, gaining additional resources at the beginning, but then cutting yourself short in the long run - Idealy, its a tactic for a fast-tech rush.


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* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?


I think that the problem lies here - this mechanic eliminates the need to expand on certain maps until very late game.

If a player could initially gain the extra gas at the begining (workers gather 75% more) for a short period and then having the geyser be depleted for a stagnant 4 minutes...

earilier, sneakier, and risky-er rushes would perhaps keep players on their toes.


* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?

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I think its kind of a "jimmy rig" fix it to a problem many new players have when they started SC1, keeping track and organizing all those expansions early game is hard you can pooch your geyser in 10 minutes on python.... and this is sort of a quick fix....
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* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?
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Honestly, I feel almost a little cheesed out. At least make me research tech throughout my tree (research at academy, then at science fascility, then build it on the geyser). It just seems as tho its like "spend money, and zing, bada bing bada boom:"

if you had to PHYSICALLY BUILD the tech on, or like, buildingsomething extra onto the geyser, that would make it a little more macro and micro related.
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* Additional feedback you might have.

if it wasn't so cheesy, id probably dig it.

 

Mixed blessing

I like the direction they're going with the new vespene mechanic, but i think that punishing players too severely will be a drawback.

I think having a progressive increase in the rate of vespene would appeal more to accelerating gameplay. Rather than gas deplete over time, offer multiple upgrades to the rate of collection at increasing mineral costs. Since players tend to favor gas heavy or gas light units in a particular strategy, it makes sense to build your economy in favor of one or the other.

I would suggest removing the vespene cap entirely, and simply add a mineral drain with increased vespene collection rates. That way a player could locally build up vespene heavy units by sacrificing mineral reserves, which would throw their economy off balance for a shot at some high tech units early on.

At the same time, low-mid level players could ignore it until they had a large enough mineral supply to afford it. The net result of which is that low-mid level players could rush to high tier vespene heavy units if they chose, and high level players could tailor their economies to a greater degree without requiring extra management.

 

I typed all of the below before I read the questions we are supposed to be answering. So my rather long blurb best fits this question. But it does in parts fit the others too.

Well I've read the descriptions on how this new gas mechanic works. And in theory I think it's a great idea in theory. But in practice I'm not so much a fan of it in it's current state. Basically this to me is making the minerals and gas interchangeable resources. If you have lots of minerals, you can spend a little for some more gas. People would say yeah more gas for whenever I have too many unused minerals. Yes that's great. But . . . .

Ah yes but. For me in SC 1 I always had to search for minerals and gas. And make good use of both. But in SC 2 now if I mismanage my gas a little, then my extra minerals can cover it. And that takes out all the fun of searching for new geysers to deplete.

But for me I never really ran out of gas in SC 1. Because even 3-4 depleted geysers with about 3 or 4 workers working them provided me with enough enough gas for most of my operations. I just think this new mechanic is making gas a little too easy to get a hold of and shifting the balance that SC 1 had with it.

But all of the above doesn't take into account the gas prices of all the units. And if you just increase all the unit gas requirements to match the mechanic. Then you'd just be forcing the players to use this mechanic or just have to mine a bucket load of gas just to keep up n the game. It's making the game a little more complicated than it should be.

Ah yes that's a lot of complaining there from me. Some valid points? Well you will all be the judge of that. But I do have a solution to it all. A new gas mechanic. Well it's just my idea of what I'd like to see in SC 2.

Each race would be able to mine gas. Exactly the same way as they did in SC 1. By building on top of the geyser and sending workers over to it. But they workers initially would only b able to mine say 2 or 3 gas per trip. And you'd be able to increase this rate by upgrading the geyser mine building. Each upgrade would increase the rate of gas collected per trip by 1. And the cost would be start of moderately priced in minerals and eventually end up (on the final upgrade) being rather expensive. But all in minerals only.

And how each race would upgrade their geyser building would be different too. But each building would need to be upgraded separately. Well it could be a global thing too. One upgrade did all the geysers, just like armour upgrades in SC 1. But that'd depend on the balance of this my new idea and how it affected the game.

Terran: They would send over a worker who would build an add on to the geyser building. And subsequent upgrades would be done at the geyser add on. And yes like any add on you can place your own geyser onto the abandoned add on and claim it as your own. But you'd only get level 1 upgrade though. You'd have to research the rest yourself.

Protoss: You'd build a building similar to a pylon in SC 1. As in any geyser in it's radius would feel it's upgrades. And at this new building you'd upgrade your gas collecting capabilities.

Zerg: You'd have a mutation option on each geyser. And each successive mutation of the geyser building would increase the gas collecting capabilities.

These upgrades could have tech tree requirements as other SC 1 upgrades did. Maybe the first one available right away. Number 2 needs a tier 2 building and level 3 needs a tier 3 building.

Who knows? Well that's my idea for gas collecting. And this would mean people who need a lot of gas could spend the money and time into upgrading their geysers. But of course the geyser would be out of commission while upgrading. So that's gas collecting down time players would have to factor in. And others who don't need all that gas could keep their minerals and stick with level zero gas collecting speed of 2 or 3 per trip.

And lastly there would be a global upgrade for depleted geysers. Initially you'd only get one gas out of them. But with a pretty expensive and lengthy research time upgrade from something one of the upgraded geyser mines you could upgrade this to what ever your non depleted geyser collection rate is. And I think this would help balance too. Cause some people would prefer to look for other geysers and some would be willing to spend the minerals for the upgrade. I think this should be available in either late tier 2 or early tier 3.

 

I feel that this mechanic could become a noob trap moving away form what the developers most intend to do with SC2. This mechanic may seem like they are making min and gas interchangeable but in reality the bus only moves one way. You have no way of making min (the only resource of the two that can actually run out) out of gas so when you may think your up on min your really not because gas mines will always give you that trickle of gas while min will just eventually run out.

I say they change up the gas mechanic so that each race has a separate mechanic that helps make the one thing in all the races seem the same recourse gathering.

 

I think they are making minerals even more important than they already are. I think they should have some kind of upgrade that only uses gas. Now your probably thinking: "Who wouldn't take that?" and I have an answer: Someone who wants gas now, not more gas later. You see? Depending on how much you plan to use throughout the game you would sacrifice your current gas to make sure you would have enough later. And it doesn't make minerals the only thing that truly matters.

 

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

I greatly dislike this change. I find it almost pointless in purpose and I believe it will only be a nuisance during gameplay. To keep things organized, a list of my problems concerning this change:
- The difference between the two resources becomes faded; Mineral equals Mineral & Gas?
- The importance of the new "Gold Minerals" becomes reduced; Why take the risk for the special Mineral when normal Mineral will technically do the same thing?
- "Turtling" is encouraged. Why expand and take offensive risks early; stack up the defense and get stronger, Gas heavy units faster.
- One step forward, one step backwards; Wasn't the idea of Auto-mining to lower the bar on economy management? This new feature is now the new thing to worry about, except it lasts the entire game.
- Map differentiation; Correct me if i'm wrong, but if a starting location requires two Gas geysers, doesn't that water down the difference between maps? Adapting to the lack or surplus of resources on a particular map was important to how the game played out.

* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?

I honestly can't think of new strategies originating from this new mechanic; one of the reasons I dislike it. However, I believe there will be a new awakening of heavily defensive strategies ("Turtles") to tech to higher tier, more Gas heavy units. I actually think it removes strategies to be honest.

* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?
All three races will have slower gameplay because of this resource conversion. Mineral may be coming at a steady rate, but Gas won't be. If you want Gas to be steady, you then gimp your Mineral, etc. Low tier units will become used less as the game progresses because of thier greater emphasis on Mineral, which is now needed to fuel your Gas.


* Additional feedback you might have

While I don't want "Starcraft in 3D" for Starcraft II, I really feel that some things should really remain untouched. Adding the 'Gold' Minerals was one thing I really think is awesome. It's so simple, but creates so much gameplay. This new mechanic however, it seems like it will be a nuisance. Although i'm not for "casualizing" the game whatsoever, I know that's a trend nowadays with many games, to make them more accessible to more players. This mechanic will make quick work of people who already had a rough time managing thier economy in the original Starcraft.

 

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

It's seems that, in summer, what most are saying is this:
Make the mechanic a little more interesting.

Personally I like this change but at the same time I understand what people are saying.
Are there going to be upgrades that allow workers to carry more minerals at once? Perhaps reviving a depleted mine would have to require something, maybe tier 2 - 2.5

I like the fact that Blizzard is looking into changing the resource gathering process (ie this and coloured minerals)

 

We should maybe choose between this mecanic or just play the game normally, without this mechanic. Blizzard should add an option to allow us to choose between those two options. Just in single player, of course.

 

I think that would make things too complicated.
They would then have to change parts of the campaign, because I'm sure early levels would introduce that to you.
And then what would multiplayer be?
If you played one way in single player and multiplayer was different...bad news bears.
But your trying to compromise and I like that.

 

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

I don't like it, because I don't want to waste minerals on vespene that I could easily get from an expansion.

 

@ chax424 : you are right in saying it will be too complicated. I didn't think that choosing between the normal mechanic and the new one for gas (you know what I mean) inside the campaign is impossible. It's true that Blizzard should show a mission where this mechanic must be explained.

For multiplayer I was now thinking about another possibility : just to allow the creator of the game to choose the strategy. But of course you notice something, don't you ? Well when a creator of a game launch it he always choose the maximum of speed for the game. So .... for the gas mechanic of course he will always choose the mechanic we know for Starcraft 1.Never we will see a game with the new mechanic.

I tried to defend the idea of an option which will allow us to choose between the normal mechanic and the newest one. No .... we can't choose.

But I like the new mechanic. I like the new strategy for the gas. We spend mineral to get more gas, as the big oil companies spend money to get more oil, to recolt deeper underground. Yes, the new mechanic for gas is more realistic. Don't you think so ?

 

<What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?>
If we look at the the current unit costs, we see that every unit has gone through an increase in gas cost from previous builds, so it will probably be necessary to use "Revive Gas" at least a few times during the course of a game. However, it also looks like the player will be able to use this ability to tech up much quicker than in SC:BW. I don't think it'll open up new strategies so much as it'll allow known strategies to be carried out more efficiently

<Do you like or dislike the change? Why?>
I like the change. After seeing the resource costs as of the Paris WWI, we're gonna need all of the gas we can get.

 

quick question for u guys, will there be a mineral that remains in the floor and even when it is depleted can still be harvested (similar to the vespene gas geyser)..

I just hated it when I ran out of crystals in the maps... in C&C the ore regenerates so i'm suggesting something similar in crystalline form?

Thanks pps

 

Minerals disappear when you mine all of them. And most probably they will never regenerate or be available infinitely because that's what makes it more distinct from gas.

 

Yes, something I dislike with the minerals is the fact that when you recolt all of them the floor "below" the cristals was still a normal floor. We had no impression that the cristals raised from the floor, but another impression that the cristals were put on the floor, and then we recolted them.

The new cristals must give the impression that they grow from the ground. Not that they are placed on it.

 

Wow that was deep! as in you wanted it to be deep ^_^

- well some of us here are not complaining with them details too much but if needed so i would rather focus on dealing with gas functions. And speaking of it, many were surprised when theyve heard of the loaning thing, and its really quite a no-user-friendly thing if I may say. But still the way I look at it, its more of a pro than a con, when you compare how will that change the gameplay. Most of us have our own priorities and when something around us changes, we are ussually at a constant stage of deciding w/c is good for us. We are a part of the starcraft community and we have to cope up to the changes w.c are rather rash for us, but of course, we also don't want to be left behind.

Anyway what Im trying to say is that we have to expand our world and trust them changes coz at the end its all for our sakes right?

Gas mechanic = 4 / 5

Trivia: What does the zerg do with the vespene gas anyway?

 

they use it for acidic funtions and helium-like capabilities for air units... so its placed in the overmind and the new larvae can adapt to new challenges...

anyway, does this gas-trade thing mean that if i have heaps of vespene gas i can trade some of it for crystalls? coz im all for it!! i always deplete the crystalls and have plenty of vespene gas since even when its depleted it still gives out some at a slow rate... (this will continue right?)