A simple request - a big difference

This is my thread from the battlenet forum, now totally vandalised.

POST1

I was thinking of how reaction time, APS and quick thinking make the difference in this game, how annoying and limiting this can be to some people (me!!).

I was thinking of how elaborate strategies could be if they were somehow programmable: you could spend days configuring your responses to various situations, then your AI would perform for you, you wouldn't have to spend years training your reflexes and could instead spend your time on deep strategy and savouring the performance of your creation.

Basically this yould mean for Blizzard to include an AI game mode / mixed modes, where the player links his AI into the game. There could be an in-built AI editor, but the best would probably have to be programmed at a lower level.

Important to note: it would probably be a good idea to limit APM (average APM) for the AI (if it exceeds a number of actions over one/two minutes, it gets disqualified).


Then there could be AI tournaments and nobody would ask for better ones from the developers.


Of course, decent versions would slip by and everyone would get them, but I think the more obsessed designers would guard their creations seriously. In any case, the resulting average AI would be far above anything Blizzard could make. And many would enjoy altering the best common versions to their own ways.



If Blizzard denies this, someone might try to hack the game and have his own fun anyway. I wonder how many did it with SC.


POST2

Actually, being able to compete over Battlenet with your AI, versus other AIs or multiple players was the main idea. Also the possibility of mixed control between you and the AI.

For the first months, fanatical players will be able to beat AIs, though as they will be perfected this will probably become impossible. Then you can always play more humans versus fewer AIs.

Of course, good AIs will slip and many will try to play without knowing a thing about the game, but that shouldn't be such a problem. Maybe Blizzard can find a way to filter recurrent AIs so that average players can still have fun with this aspect (design their own), should they decide to follow my idea.

After all, AI players will be labeled as such and won't degrade the normal PvP. There should also be "testing grounds", for fun and surprises, where they won't be labeled and where similar AI designs would be restricted.


SOME OF WHAT OTHERS SAID


beetlelisk:
Ai_Mania wrote about improving computer AI by players themselves to make it harder.

Blackman is one player I know that was doing that with SC:BW but he is smart enough and what's more didn't have internet connection.


Tiger0211:
Why don't you just plan ahead, then execute it yourself? It would be really boring to just watch your units. Although it would be pretty cool to be able to make an AI and have it battle you or other people or their AIs...just not as a normal thing.


phase_tn:
It would be very interesting to have a mode besides normal gameplay where you could make your programmed AI fight against someone else´s AI. This is a very interesting idea.

EDIT: It seems everyone missed the point of the OP. It is not to program your AI to beat other players, but to compete to see who CAN PROGRAM the best AI. It´s not that he wants to automate his gameplay, but he´s proposing an interesting new mode for the game.

 

Hmm, good idea, but I wonder how useful it would be besides working on specific build orders/units....

Either or, I like the idea.

 

The problem is that you worded your idea in a way that makes it easy to misinterpret it.

One interpretation would be programming your own AI and as your creation, you make it fight with others' creations. The other interpretation is to program an AI that helps you play better, without actually getting any better because it'd do things for you.

Your intended suggestion is very interesting because it utilises a different aspect of RTS gaming. But the whole tournament and competition thing would never happen because soon enough the perfect AI with basic (or rather elaborate) options would be created. Such options come into my mind as the three basic strategies (turtling, boom, and rush IIRC) with variants of aggressive and defensive play as well as aiming for mowing the opponent down; playing smart by strictly countering, dropping, and picking off units one by one; or starving it till victory. Not to mention all the unit combinations there are. These could all be programmed into one smart AI, and there would be no competitor left. SC games would literally become rock-paper-scissor games, with the outcome of the game solely depending on who chooses what combination of strategy and tactics.

 

Hey, that would be a great way to test the game balance. But I also think that improvement will always be an option: better tactical combat and, at least, better response times. Of course by then it is a matter of professional programming. Then it's a chance for Blizzard to widen their influence.

 

LOLZ there is a massive disscussion about this.

look up "GAMBIT" or "GAMBITS" in the search forum box..... there are MANY VERY conclusive ideas here that may put you at ease

buck up! ;]

 

You're right, there seems to have been quite some discussion on gambits. And I think they're a great idea as long as they are available to the player's control.

I had never heard of a gambit before From what I read, they appeared to me as partial AI (unit, economy, etc.). That would certainly be interesting too, for me. As long as they are with a custom setting and scalable next to game types.

 

ya, that was the point. its like queing your units to micro certain ways, like having your marines only attack air units, or having hydras burrow as soon as they are attacked ect.

 

Linking to jamaylott's gambit threads, for posterity. As he says, they are quite exhaustive.

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=216
http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204

 

I would rather just play the game online with people who know how to play the game as well, not master programmers that have found out how to make the AI do everything for them. It doesn't really sound like fun to me...especially if you didn't even have to control the game very much. They could make a section of B.Net for it though, so long as there were a way to detect whether people have custom AI on or off.

 

I'm glad you found a forum that actually listens to your ideas.

 

I'd rather just play instead of programming the game. It feels sort of like cheating - If you create a gaming AI to do everything for you, then the satisfaction from winning will fade away quickly. I find it more satisfying to practice strategies and tactics, to outwit and be outwitted by human opponents. It's like kuvasz pointed out; once the best AI is created, there will be no more competition left.

 

I think that in most games, AI is pathetic, simply because the company doesn't see the need for an investment or developement of a complex one.

Just complete the game with an editor designed to integrate custom AIs into the game, make AI tournaments and give the opportunity for human-AI games in multiplayer for custom AIs.

Perhaps few programmers will get into it and their work would get spread out, but it is a good way to expand something that the company never will and would be a shame to miss. The real strategic and tactical possibilities can only be judged clearly in programming and testing a custom AI !

Some of what others said:

Also, this would be very useful for custom maps, because with only triggers it's very difficult to make units have consistent behavior.

Also, user generated AIs would be much less efficient than Blizzard's, but it would be very funny to do AI vs AI fights. Just like Robocode.

AI is not build order scripts. You can program the AI to do absolutely everything you want it to do, you just have to code the situation into it.

In WarCraft III World Editor you were able to modify the AI to an extend.
If I remember correctly Blizzard has said that they would improve on that area and support more customizable AIs in StarCraft II.

I remember trying out the AI editor in Warcraft III. You could actually give it some pretty nice rushing strategies, and it would easily beat the Blizzard AI with those well timed build orders. However, you still ran into the fundamental problems that it had poor micromanagement (yeah, it gave orders rapidly, but they weren't very good orders, hence it's still bad micro) and was not very adaptable. There wasn't too much you could do about this.

If we get the right tools, I think some nice AI's could be created. There's lots of room for improvement, as even the best AI's in the genre are laughable, and that's all the more reason to give people the power to try and make something better.

But Blizzard you could hire the best AI creator there is through this once in a life time opportunity.

Plus, you wouldn't be doing much work, Blizzard. All you need to do is make an AI creator available in the StarCraft 2 mapeditor.

 

LOL welcome back once again to the forum. Bit of a necropost but that's okay.

I think you're idea is actually quite interesting. But I wonder if it has a place in actual gameplay. I can see this as a kind of mod to help you to tweak the enemy computer AI so that it is more effective or concentrates on a particular type of build and would therefore help you to practice against it (kind of like a Chess game that plays against you in a way that you specify).

Perhaps there could be some kind of AI recording system that would allow you either set the ratio of created units or the difficulty of difference aspects of the computer's play (unit control, expansion, macromanagement efficiency, etc.)

But once again we welcome the discussion. I'm sure there's someone who can make a better argument than myself.

 

Thanl you! I'm bringing a few of my ideas from the dying official forum, which was never actually a friendly place. These include the custom AI, APM matching and "Hardcore campaign".
I'll post a few of the old replies now and then, looking forward to what people here have to say!

 

Let me get this straight, basically you want to just watch a game between 2 computers? could be good for a game mode i guess, but normal gameplay.

 

Actually I think this is a good idea. But only if used in this way:

1. You first watch your replays and see how you are getting beaten and by what ways.
2. Then you program the AI of your next opponent (Computer one of course) to attack you in the ways the other players are using to good effect. This is so you can learn how to counter what you aren't so good at.
3. Practice the above.
4. Finally test out what you've learned on actual human Battle.net opponents. Sure the above practice will be out of context, but now you can learn to use those techniques just learned in the context of a real battle.

To me it just helps you get better and better at SC. Well it's be only for the hardcore players who really want to get all they can out of their performance (how good they are) at the game. Because most people agree the AI isn't as fun or good at learning SC advanced techniques as real human opponents.

Mind you this would work for the odd AI game people play. That's if you want to tweak it's style of playing. If you don't like it that is.

Actually what I think would be nice for the AI in multiplayer is an option to select it's tactics.

Aggressive
Defensive
Balanced (ie a little bit of both of the above)

I think those 3 options would be enough for most people. And the few others could hack the AI to their hearts content.

So to answer the OP directly. Yes it would be nice. But I don't see it getting much use in the way you envisage it. But as more of a personal or learning experience maybe it might see more use.

 

i think it would be cool if you could have AI that adapts its strategies to you game from game, sure help you improve.

i'm sure some form of AI editor will be in the mapeditor, you'll need it to make any new units or races work.